Make IDLE doc more visible, mention in main python docs page

[phr]

BPO	40733
Nosy	@terryjreedy, @taleinat, @amaajemyfren
Files	docs.python.org.png

^{Note: these values reflect the state of the issue at the time it was migrated and might not reflect the current state.}

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GitHub fields:

assignee = None
closed_at = None
created_at = <Date 2020-05-22.20:27:42.295>
labels = ['3.7', '3.8', '3.9', '3.10', 'expert-IDLE', 'type-feature', 'docs']
title = 'Make IDLE doc more visible, mention in main python docs page'
updated_at = <Date 2020-05-23.15:58:43.662>
user = 'https://bugs.python.org/phr'

bugs.python.org fields:

activity = <Date 2020-05-23.15:58:43.662>
actor = 'amaajemyfren'
assignee = 'docs@python'
closed = False
closed_date = None
closer = None
components = ['Documentation', 'IDLE']
creation = <Date 2020-05-22.20:27:42.295>
creator = 'phr'
dependencies = []
files = ['49186']
hgrepos = []
issue_num = 40733
keywords = []
message_count = 7.0
messages = ['369640', '369680', '369709', '369710', '369719', '369721', '369726']
nosy_count = 5.0
nosy_names = ['terry.reedy', 'phr', 'taleinat', 'docs@python', 'amaajemyfren']
pr_nums = []
priority = 'normal'
resolution = None
stage = 'needs patch'
status = 'open'
superseder = None
type = 'enhancement'
url = 'https://bugs.python.org/issue40733'
versions = ['Python 3.7', 'Python 3.8', 'Python 3.9', 'Python 3.10']

[phr]

The IDLE documentation is in https://docs.python.org/3/library/idle.html which is not where I'd have thought to look for it, since I think of IDLE as an application rather than a library. So I looked for it on the main docs page, docs.python.org, and didn't find it there. I ended up finding it by web search.

I guess its current location is reasonable, but maybe a link to it could be included in docs.python.org's main page left side navigation panel, or IDLE could simply be mentioned in the entry for library documentation.

[terryjreedy]

I agree that finding the online doc is slight pain. It is not listed in the Modules index because idlelib, not IDLE, is the stdlib module, and does not have a doc page. I may add one or, if possible, make the page serve as one, as part of this issue. 'IDLE' *is* in the Index, and the first link is the correct one.

I don't control and would not unilaterally change the main page. I am hesitant because I expect that there are people who would think it unfair or deceptive to especially promote IDLE this way versus other stdlib packages and non-stdlib IDEs and editors. I might subscribe to and post on python-ideas to see what other users think.

Help => IDLE Help displays an offline copy of idle.html as of the release date in a tktinker text window. Have you noticed that? Would "IDLE doc" be clearer?

I could also add label with the online url and date above the text.
[https://docs.python.org/3.x/library/idle.html as of <release date>]

[amaajemyfren]

I could also add label with the online url and date above the text.
[https://docs.python.org/3.x/library/idle.html as of <release date>]

Maybe this is a bit messy?

I may be wrong but I suspect that most people on docs.python.org use none
dev versions. For us, most likely, we keep to the releases (maybe behind
the very current version, but unlikely that we are compiling in the latest
bug fixes, or (and here I could be absolutely wrong) pulling from a
distribution that is). (If they are compiling their own Python with bug
fixes, is it fair to assume they are also preparing their own
documentation? Not sure.)

Say I am using Python 3.7.5, the documentation, being for Python 3.7.7, is
(hopefully?) sufficient for me to know it is not the same as the IDLE I am
using - the addition of the date may help emphasize the point, but chances
are I don't track the release schedule/know when my IDLE was packaged for
me and so it may only further confuse me. I suggest that if the page has
the release version don't also provide the "as of <release date>" .
Now if Documentation for all patchlevels were available ... but I suspect
that may not be possible.

Thinking about it though Paul said:

So I looked for it on the main docs page, docs.python.org, and didn't
find it there. I ended up finding it by web search.

From 3.5 there is a search on the top right of docs.python.org: @phr is
that what you meant by web search or did you use google/bing/etc? Most
likely many people use the search to find what they want from
docs.python.org ... or it is hardly used.

[phr]

I think I used duckduckgo to find the docs. They don't change much between versions and I was trying to find how to do a specific thing. My installation has the docs included but it didn't explain how to do what I wanted, so I had hoped there was a more complete doc on docs.python.org. Unfortunately it turned out to be the same doc. The functionality I wanted (to put a startup script in .idlerc) seems to not exist though. I'll research workarounds a bit further and possibly open an RFE if people think that sounds right.

[terryjreedy]

Ama, when responding by email, please leave out the full quote of the message you are responding to. (A snippet of at most a few lines is ok.) Once posted, it becomes redundant noise. [edit-I snipped the extraneous quote.]

[terryjreedy]

Paul, the doc has the following line
-s run $IDLESTARTUP or $PYTHONSTARTUP before anything else

[amaajemyfren]

I think I used duckduckgo to find the docs.

Ok,

I just checked and when one has scrolled down the search is not seen.
In most browsers web search is easier than searching on the docs site.

[terryjreedy]

"IDLE could simply be mentioned in the entry for library documentation." IDLE in not in the text but it in in the listing of modules and the browser search (ctrl-F for me) should find it. However, I see a place where something could be added. Will think about it.

I made the online IDLE doc accessible from the Glossary entry and from the Module index (#75510). I also changed 'IDLE Help' (in process), which was an old text doc, to 'IDLE Doc', which is a copy of the online IDLE doc.

[terryjreedy]

I have not tried to add IDLE to the main doc page but have have other changes to make the doc more accessible.